讲座现场
陈晓阳：首先欢迎各位观众与师生参加群岛讲堂的第六讲。在过去的三至四个月里，群岛讲堂陆续地邀请了众多艺术家和国际学者，他们为我们带来了关于全球艺术和替代性教育的前沿案例，以及新型美术馆的实践探索。今天我们非常荣幸地邀请到了艺术家及学者凯瑟琳·赫恩（Kathleen Hearn）和妮卡·杜布罗夫斯基（Nika Dubrovsky），带来一场关于“与社区共同构想的替代性秩序”的精彩讲座。此次讲座也与第三届“无墙儿童艺术节”紧密合作，两位嘉宾也参与了该艺术节，在途经广州之际与我们分享他们的见解。她们将基于在海口举办的“无墙儿童艺术节”的实践经验以及过往的相关研究，展开深入的分享。本次讲座的学术主持及翻译由新美术馆学研究中心的陆思培老师担任。现在，让我们将讲座的时间交给她们。
陆思培：凯瑟琳·赫恩主要在多伦多生活和工作，她的艺术创作以影像为主要媒介，并且她特别关注社区参与的工作方法。她经常与青少年合作，并且每个项目的持续时间通常较长。今天在座的嘉宾和观众都与这一领域有着密切的联系，因此我们有机会与她进行深入的交流。
妮卡·杜布罗夫斯基主要从事写作工作，并组织开放式项目，例如与美术馆概念相关的共同参与项目。她的写作多聚焦于对艺术系统和艺术世界的批判，她的行动也是对这些批评的回应。她曾与大卫·格雷伯博士合作撰写了一系列相关文章，目前她正在出版一系列更具想象力和可能性的著作《Made Differently》。由于出版社可能会使用不同的中文翻译，因此我这里没有提供翻译。我已经将她们之前提供的资料简单翻译成中文，但翻译可能不够精确。如果大家在现场发现有任何问题，欢迎提出，我们可以一起讨论。
首先，让我们热烈欢迎凯瑟琳·赫恩为我们做简短的分享。关键词是“Correlating”，意在创造一种相互关联、共同投入的状态。
凯瑟琳·赫恩进行分享
Kathleen:
Hi ! I’m Kathleen Hearn. Thank you for inviting me today. I would like to discuss two projects I have worked on, as well as my recent work in Haikou. Much of my work involves longer, more sustained projects that I prefer to describe as 'co-relational' rather than collaborative. I believe my work has a strong relationship with the communities I work with and shares compatible values with them.
And so often the work that I make starts with getting to know the place and getting to know the people that I'm working with. The first project I'm going to talk about is a project I did in a community on the periphery of Havana in Cuba called The Son of Esteem.
The project "Los Chicos De 250" was a teaching initiative that I worked on in a community for some time. It was started by a guy named Alexi. Back then, there weren't many cell phones or other ways to communicate in the community. While out for a stroll with Alexi, we had the chance to connect with some members of the community and extended an invitation for them to join us in exploring a potential project. This marked my first meeting with a larger group, where they were able to view some of my work. I encouraged them to return for further discussions and collaboration. At the time in Cuba, all television was under government control, leading the children to feel that their own stories weren't being represented in the media. As a result, they expressed the desire to find a way to share their own narratives. In the following months, we organized workshops and continued our efforts. They wrote journals and took me on walks through the community. We mined their real lives for stories, so they wrote a lot about moments that impacted them. We then used these moments and translated them into a four-part telenovela. The locations and the actors are all kids from the community; they are playing themselves. So, Carla's story takes place in her bedroom, and all the places are places that they chose for the story.
One of the things that I find important in my work is not just swooping in and taking things away. I want to ensure that my work is present in the community and that it creates a positive impact. Since this area was quite remote and had limited access to the main city, I collaborated with professors from the main university in Havana. Over six months, they came once a week to conduct acting workshops for the kids.
These are just images of us building up the story. So, this is us filming the story. In the end, it was called "Los Chicos de 250," which means “The Kids of 250." 250 is the main street of this town. So, it's really about them and their community. This is a four-part telling novella, I'll play some clips from this second episode.
凯瑟琳·赫恩：大家好，我是凯瑟琳·赫恩。现在，我将介绍的第一个项目是一个在古巴进行的长期项目。这个项目的工作地点位于古巴的圣奥斯汀，这是一个条件相对普通的区域，电视和手机等通讯工具并不普及，因此当地的青少年缺乏有效的沟通渠道。目前，我正与一位名叫Alexi的社区成员合作，我们通过走访了解了许多地方。我们邀请青少年观看我们的作品、参与创作，并与他们一起进行讨论和活动。由于古巴的电视台均由国家控制，青少年们感到难以看到与自己生活紧密相关或真实反映的内容，因此我们决定共同创作一部剧集。我们通过写作、交谈和实地走访，探索对这些青少年而言重要的地方和故事，最终制作了一部四集的迷你剧。剧中的演员们演绎的是自己的故事，角色的名字也来源于他们的真实经历，拍摄地点则是他们日常生活的环境。在我看来，社区工作不应是短暂的介入，而应建立长期联系，对社区成员的生活产生实质性的影响。我们希望这种互动是双向的，既有给予也有收获。在这个项目中，我们也与当地学校合作，整个项目历时一年多，其中六个月时间用于为青少年提供表演课程。
接下来，我将展示一些现场照片和拍摄场景。这个地点名为“250号街”，是该地区的主干道，也是活动频繁的地区。让我们通过一些片段来感受这个项目。
图片由凯瑟琳·凯恩提供
The title of this episode is TITLE II ARTICLE 3, which is the Child and Youth Protection Act. This act ensures that every child will have full access to education. The first part had to be done in a very subtle way because, at that time, individuals couldn't move freely and there were restrictions on who could attend school. There were political implications regarding access to education. The project had to go through government approval, and the government could decide how many positions were available each year. For example, in a given year, they might decide not to accept any architects, resulting in no positions in that profession at the university. Additionally, the selection process was not always based on merit; instead, it involved people in positions of authority making the decisions. This often involved favoritism or selecting people they knew personally, rather than being an open and transparent process.
However, the kids' stories are also personal. Some of them are about loss and leaving. Some are about running away from home and making that decision. In a particular moment, one of the girls is reenacting a moment when she is deciding whether to run away. I want to show this because it demonstrates the power and beauty of these kids and their talent.
在这部短片的标题是《TITLE II ARTICLE 3》，它象征着一条法律条文，即每个青少年都有接受教育的权利。然而，影片所描绘的现实却是，有些青少年因为非法状态而无法移动或接受教育。
影片主要讲述了两位小女孩在讨论未来的计划，其中一位提到了多种选择，比如去技术学校或大学，同时她也在上音乐课，她们互相欣赏，讨论着谁应该成为主唱，谁应该做支持工作。当地存在一些规定，决定谁可以上学，谁不可以。由于影片需要经过政府审查，因此处理得相当微妙。政府可能会根据需要自行决定每年每个专业可以招收多少人，例如今年可能决定不需要太多的建筑师。招生过程并不完全公开透明，有时并不是基于个人能力，而是可能涉及关系网。因此，边缘社区的青少年在这个过程中可能会遭遇不公。在讲述这些故事时，青少年们分享了许多关于恋爱、家庭关系的挣扎以及如何做出决定的经历。现在展示的是影片中一个关键的时刻。
在古巴圣阿古斯丁的放映现场，图片由凯瑟琳·凯恩提供
I wanted to emphasize the importance of showcasing this work in its proper context. The work was taken to schools and also received significant attention in the community. A large number of people came out to watch it, and we utilized a projection screen for the display. Additionally, we found a way to distribute it through a network called "the package" via USB, sort of bypassing the government restrictions. My friend Nestor is the one who set up this network. Another artist had a folder that could be used to distribute artworks within the same network.
拍摄完成后，我们希望在原本的社区放映这部影片，因此会与学校合作，在社区环境中播放。同时，艺术家朋友们也在当地组织了活动，将一些在古巴被禁止的影片拷贝到USB中，然后分发给不同的家庭，相当于将这些资源直接送到他们手中。这是青少年后来的照片，我们还有其他与青少年合作的项目。由于大家对古巴的印象往往是热带风情，我希望可以用青少年自己的视角来表现他们生活的环境，因此我们与他们一起创作绘画、拍摄，以及其他在古巴的项目，虽然今天没有时间详细介绍，但大家可以访问我们网站了解更多。
参与者的肖像与他们绘制的风景，图片由凯瑟琳·凯恩提供
There is a project in Senegal that is also about the rights of young people there. Since Senegal is also a former colony, local museums and galleries often present official or Western narratives. In this project, we worked with young people because they showed creativity and different group cultures through self-expression, such as skateboarding and roller skating, so we also took some related materials. In addition to these projects, other projects were derived from the process of communicating with young people individually. For example, some teenagers are good at singing, so we took pictures together. At the same time, these teenagers also considered whether the photos we took could be used for their social media or personal promotion, so they also participated in some exhibition activities. Here are some photos of the exhibition site.
在塞内加尔有一个项目，也是关于那边青少年的权利。由于塞内加尔也是前殖民地，当地的博物馆和美术馆往往呈现官方或西方的叙述。在这个项目中，我们与青少年一起工作，因为他们通过自我表达，比如玩滑板、轮滑等活动，展现了创造力和不同的团体文化，所以我们也拍摄了一些相关的素材。除了这些项目，与青少年单独交流的过程中也衍生出其他项目。例如，有的青少年擅长唱歌，我们便一起进行拍摄。同时，这些青少年也会考虑我们拍摄的照片是否可以用于他们的社交媒体或个人宣传，因此他们也参与了一些展示活动。这是一些展览现场的照片。
在海口无墙儿童艺术节的拍摄，图片由凯瑟琳·凯恩提供
在海口无墙儿童艺术节的拍摄，图片由凯瑟琳·凯恩提供
It was a quick and crazy experience working on the Kindergarten Without Fault Walls festival project. It served as an amazing introduction to a place I hope to revisit. My work often begins with an encounter, and in this case, it started with a group photo I took with some of the kids. Through this exchange, a mutual vulnerability was created, requiring time and trust. I strive to be open and present, without imposing preconceived ideas. This allows me to listen and be vulnerable, fostering a better collaborative experience. Ultimately, building trust and vulnerability from all parties involved is necessary for successful outcomes.
这是最近在海口做的部分，那几天很忙，从早到晚都在做活动，但是这几天的经历很珍贵，刚到那边的时候首先给社区的小朋友拍摄了集体合照。非常重要的一点是，双方都要敞开心扉进行交流，建立信任，并且不害怕展现自己的脆弱性。脆弱性意味着面对所谓的不如意或无法预料的部分时都要去勇敢地面对。
陆思培：关于海口的活动的介入，可不可以给到大家一个具体的例子？
Kathleen:
I might need a moment to kind of any examples in Haikou, but here is one in Senegal. I often question whether what I create can be considered art. This is something I think about a lot when I'm working. I also ponder on the concepts of success and failure in my work. It can be challenging, especially when I'm working in environments that force me to confront my own cultural background. I have to acknowledge that I see the world through the lens of my Canadian upbringing, and recognizing this cultural difference can be difficult. For example, when I worked in Senegal, I struggled with their concept of time, which was very different from what I was used to. For instance, if I said I would meet someone at 2:00 pm, it did not have the same meaning as it would in my culture. This kind of clash can create difficulties, especially when things don't go according to plan, like when projects fail or when unexpected life events occur. In these moments, I remind myself that I am a guest and visitor in these places, and I try to approach situations with the awareness that I bring a different cultural perspective. My trips are often quick, and it can be challenging to adapt and adjust to the differences in each new environment. This can be stressful for me and those around me. Overall, this type of work demands a lot from me, and it can be hard to be vulnerable. However, despite the challenges, I believe in staying connected with the people I work with, even though it requires a lot of time and commitment. This work is demanding, but I truly believe in its value.
凯瑟琳·赫恩：可能需要些时间回想一下海口的例子，不过在塞内加尔的时候，也有遇到了一些与文化差异相关的经验。例如，我来自加拿大，对于时间和地点的认知有着自己的一套体系。当地人可能会说“明天下午两点见”，但这并不一定意味着确切的时间。因此，我需要根据不同的理解和语境来思考如何实现与社区的深入交流。在这个过程中，我遇到了许多挑战，比如想要合作的孩子们突然离开，或者沟通并不如预期那样顺畅。我刚从墨西哥完成一个项目，那里的条件与塞内加尔大不相同。尽管如此，我总是强调自己是一个客人或参观者，需要适应当地的情况。在放松和开放的心态中，我也会寻找那些已经与当地社区建立了深厚关系并在那里工作的人，通过找到合适的合作者来适应变化的情况。
我的介绍就到这里。
陆思培：我在查资料的时候有看到凯瑟琳在古巴的项目，和当地的一个机构Lasa合作，Lasa在那个地方已经做了很多年社区的工作，也非常强调艺术的实验性。一开始她们刚在那边做艺术家驻流的时候，别人会觉得艺术家在街上做各种乱七八糟的事情，她们做了几年之后大家就会更习惯这样的形式，而且也会把艺术空间作为一个汇合点，所以凯瑟琳做长期项目的时候，本来那个社区就和Lasa有很多信任基础。访谈中，Lasa的组织者就说，在古巴，你通过艺术可以做到其他行业可能做不到的事情，比如要运输什么东西，比如运输一个艺术作品，就可以获得一些便利，但平时要获得这样的服务还比较麻烦，所以也是在建设自己的土壤，不是直接从西方的艺术概念来进口的。
现在有请妮卡·杜布罗夫斯基。
Nika：
Thank you for the invitation. It's fascinating to be in China and I appreciate the opportunity to talk and share companionship during this festival. Today, I won't discuss my work, but rather the essay I wrote with my late husband David Graber, as well as the current situation.
The collection was written in 2019, and since then, significant developments have occurred, particularly regarding the severity of climate change. Many new ideas have also emerged since 2019. I'll spend the first 15 minutes quickly going through the essay collection, which is available to read online if you're interested.
Following that, I'll dedicate another 15 minutes to discussing potential outcomes. The essay consists of four parts, and I'm currently finalizing the fourth part. I believe our discussion today will influence how I approach writing the final part, and I look forward to our conversation.
I'll focus on the current situation and the fourth part of the essay during this time. As a child, I always believed that being an artist meant having the freedom to reimagine the world, while also being able to effect real change. I grew up in the Soviet Union, where there was a strong tradition of art having the power to implement significant changes.
妮卡·杜布罗夫斯基：非常荣幸能够来到中国。在今天的分享中，我不会深入讨论我参与的各个项目，因为这些内容可以在网站上找到详细介绍。今天，我主要想回顾一下之前与大卫·格雷伯合著的一系列文章的核心观点，以及在当前我们所面临的形势下，这些过去的思考如何发挥作用，我们还能利用哪些思想资源来应对当下的挑战。
这一系列文章是在2019年撰写的，当时我们正面临着日益严峻的气候危机、战争以及一系列新兴思想的出现。因此，在接下来的15分钟内，我将简要概述这一系列文章的主要内容。文章讨论的是全球性的问题，由于我也是一位艺术家，这些讨论与我个人的感受密切相关。我将与大家分享为何选择成为艺术家，以及成为艺术家意味着什么。在我小时候，我认为成为艺术家意味着拥有自由，能够重新构想世界应有的样子，以及探索各种可能性。在生活的环境中，苏联前卫艺术家对成功的定义则是能够带来变革的人。
We recently visited the Venice Biennale, a significant art exhibition, and it got us thinking about how the world operates and how we perceive it. Despite coming from opposite sides of the Cold War - me from the Soviet Union and my companion from the US - we realized that our experiences growing up in the 70s were surprisingly similar. The 70s were a time of welfare state in both the West and the Soviet Union. For example, in the UK, many young people received unemployment benefits and pursued careers in music, leading to the rise of famous rock bands. One band we admired from the UK was named after a social benefit number, celebrating the idea of being unemployed and receiving benefits. On the other hand, in the Soviet Union, many musicians were also engineers by day and recorded songs at night, distributing their music throughout the country. This led us to think about the idea that everyone has the capacity to be an artist, not just a select few. We also briefly discussed romanticism and its influence on our perception of artists as special individuals connected to the sublime.
文章开头探讨了在威尼斯双年展上的看法，从这一出发点思考艺术世界的构成。在撰写这篇文章时，我也联系了自己年轻时的经历，以及对艺术家应有形象的思考。大卫·格雷伯在纽约成长，而我则是在列宁格勒成长，代表了冷战时期的两个阵营。然而，在70年代，这两个地方的社会语境却有很大的相似性，都可以视为福利社会。正如屏幕所示，在英国，许多年轻人失业，但由于有救济金，他们得以发展自己在音乐和其他艺术方面的兴趣，从而涌现出许多艺术家。
屏幕左侧的组合名称代表了失业者获得救济金的保障号码，等于向全社会宣布“我们失业了”。屏幕右侧的照片则展示了一些苏联工程师，他们白天工作，晚上录制自己的音乐。那时社会普遍信奉“人人都是艺术家”，艺术家并不被视为一种特殊职业，大家都可以进行创造。彼时对成功、职业以及艺术创作的理解，与现在有很大不同。屏幕上的文本提到，我们仍然受到浪漫主义对艺术家的影响，认为艺术家拥有超凡的才能，蕴含崇高的思想和理念。
通过对一些文本和文献的调研，我发现以往的讨论中，创作或艺术家并非完全是个人主义的产物，很多时候与集体创造密切相关。例如，为什么《格林童话》中会有仙女在森林里共同创造这个世界的想法？这一点很有趣，因为它揭示了社会经济规则的运作方式。无产阶级的概念与天才艺术家的概念几乎是同时出现的。我们对著名艺术家的所有事情都充满好奇，包括他们的家庭和生活状况。然而，对于制造我们生活所需一切物品的无产阶级，我们却几乎一无所知。我认为这两个观念之间是有联系的。
This takes me back to my youth and the reason I wanted to be an artist— I wanted to be more like Salvador Dali, not like a factory worker, because I grew up within this framework. It's intriguing, as I grew up in formerly communist countries, such as the Soviet Union. This logic is strongly correlated with the contemporary logic of capitalism, which emphasizes creative capital and the value placed on the inventors of ideas, such as Elon Musk, over those actually producing things on the ground.
David and I started thinking about how we can reform the current system and practically what should be done. We wanted to retreat to the farm and imagine what kind of art world is possible. However, we also need to understand that the artwork exhibited in the Venice Biennale is not as innocent as it seems, mainly because it presents itself as the only place where art can be created, evaluated, and disseminated. Towards the end of our discussion, there was a surge in movements like Black Lives Matter in the West, with people in the UK, Europe, and the US dismantling monuments of colonial powers in the form of photographs, videos, and installations. This led us to think about how to create a structure that would allow us to abandon the current museum and art world system completely. What mechanisms could be proposed that would be practical? Sadly, David passed away, and now I want to discuss one of his projects that I am considering as a collective effort, which I call the open library of David Graber. This project involves sharing his collection of 15,000 books from a hard drive as a way of distribution. The library contains books on various topics like anthropology, philosophy, and science fiction. Going back to our initial discussion about what an artist is and what constitutes a human being, David strongly believed that the current academic and art world system treats individuals as disconnected from others, which, according to him, is a problematic notion.
我自身也受到了这种影响，对于自由的概念以及什么是自由的追求也有所改变。例如，更多的人梦想成为达利这样的艺术家，而不是成为工厂的工人。我成长于一个前共产主义国家，这种逻辑与当前资本主义社会推崇的创造力和突破性个人主义有着紧密联系，比如人们普遍认为埃隆·马斯克是天才。屏幕上展示的是我对于艺术世界可能存在的其他生产方式的思考。
在威尼斯双年展上所展示的内容并非完美无瑕，它们也承载着特定的象征意义，向世界宣告只有在这里产生的艺术才是真正的艺术。近年来，在欧美持续进行的一项群众运动是拆除殖民时期的历史纪念碑和塑像。博物馆和美术馆也在收集这些拆除行动的影像和记录，而这些记录又转化为收藏品和艺术品。因此，这一系列的实践也是在重新想象博物馆和美术馆未来可能的发展方向。
不幸的是，大卫·格雷伯在几年前去世了，但我仍在继续实践我们共同构想的一些项目，其中包括海盗图书馆。这是一个包含15000本书的硬盘，供大家阅读。目前，这个图书馆的运作仍然基于朋友间的合作，人们可以从硬盘中下载这些书籍。书籍的分类是根据大卫·格雷伯的理解进行的，包括分类学、科幻等类别。
On the screen, you now see the name of one of his articles called "Beyond the Monastic". This is an unpublished article that will be included in the new collection of essays on the effects. It will be published by Penguin and FSG in the US, and it has also been trusted in China. The article explores the idea that we don't exist as separate beings, emphasizing the interconnectedness of art and the impact of social media.
We proposes the idea of using visualization as a tool to create connections between people from different cultures. They plan to hold an exhibition at a Chinese museum and are working on creating a Chinese interface where people can add their own connections and names, contributing to a new universe that will be beneficial for people living today. We discusses how the traditional concept of the individual as an all-knowing genius is harmful and emphasizes the importance of culture and care for real people. They highlight the damaging impact of the Western educational system's emphasis on creating an imaginary genius and its origins in monasteries.
我们的讨论中有一个很重要的观点，就是挑战和反驳现在以及学术界对于创作者通常的观念，即前面提到过的，创作并不总是个人主义的行为。创作过程中无疑包含了集体的智慧，个人创作与集体思想是紧密相连的。屏幕上展示的是大卫·格雷伯撰写的一篇文章，该文章的第四部分即将出版。除了探讨个人与集体的关系，文章还涉及个人的成长、身份形成与周围环境的相互关爱和影响。所以目前我们也在尝试把海盗图书馆发展成更开源的平台，允许用户增加自己的收藏和理解，并以不同语言的版本运行，形成一个流动的图书馆。这样的图书馆不仅在数字空间中存在，也会在不同的博物馆和美术馆中展示。如果我们仍然停留在讨论那些高高在上、站在山顶的艺术家或创作者的形象，我们现在需要思考的是艺术与每个人日常生活的联系，以及艺术与每个人之间的关系。这种思考方式有助于我们重新定义艺术与社会、个体与集体之间的互动和影响。
I just wanted to talk about our experience together at the festival. I think it was really wonderful! There were so many different people from various backgrounds joining us at the festival, and it was quite different from traditional professional culture. The festival was rooted in the real world and was making tangible changes on the ground. It was amazing to see people from different walks of life coming together - rich, poor, young, old, locals, foreigners, Chinese students, engineers, and more. I made new friends, Mellon and Becca, who are engineers, and we are hoping to collaborate in the future. They came up with the concept of a guerrilla playground installation, where they installed playgrounds in public spaces they created. There were over 30 projects completed in less than a week, making it almost an ideal project. What's even better is that the festival has a lasting impact. Unlike the art world where things tend to vanish after the event, this place continues to exist throughout the year and between festivals. Another striking thing about the festival was the sense of solidarity. Unlike the competitive nature of many academic fields, this was a place of total solidarity.
And I want to finish my talk by describing how David always began his lectures at university. He would start by saying that anthropology is a science that, while maintaining the differences between different cultures, primarily reminds us of what constitutes humanity. We essentially share a common human nature. He then gave an example; while every human can potentially learn any other human language, none of us can learn how to communicate like dolphins. Learning culture, any human can learn any other human language, but none of us can learn dolphin language. Dolphins also have a language, but we can't understand them; we can't live alone.
There is a political implication away from this academic approach. David made us think about how his theoretical ideas relate to political implications. They are about what we can do about the dangers we are currently facing, such as wars and climate change. So, he talked about the major danger of power, which is that it provides us with a false narrative that power itself probably believes. Basically, it pushes us to fight each other and divides us into Ukrainians and Russians, Israelis and Palestinians, and Western and Eastern intelligence and working classes.
我和凯瑟琳，包括在座的任钧、潘赫、周琰都参与了无墙幼儿园艺术节，我觉得这个行动是非常在地的，也有很深厚的土壤，也对这个社区造成了具体的变化。这个活动有不同阶级，不同背景的人来参与，有穷有富，也有国内外不同学科的人，有学生，当然还有本地的社区的人，我们在一周内做了30多个小项目。在这个艺术节里面有一项很有趣的活动就是有两位朋友，贝卡和小瓜（他是有工程师背景的艺术家）在当地做了一些很有趣的、低成本的、像游乐园设备的东西，可以长期放置在社区里供孩子们玩耍和使用。
我觉得这件事情是有持续性的，不是做完走了，某一些项目和人的关系都可以有后续的发展。一般来说艺术世界是一个特别有竞争的环境，大家都想做得比别人好，但是在这个艺术节的社区里面，我感受到有团结一致的感觉，大家是为一个共同的信念去实践的。我想用大卫·格雷伯经常在讲座中用的一段话来结束这部分的分享，就是：在不同文化中，不同的语境中，我们总是会被提醒，在人性中有多少共通的部分。我们都可以学其他的语言，但是我们学不了海豚的语言。我觉得在大卫·格雷伯的讨论中，可能有更多可以延伸的一些政治含义和讨论，在我们面对战争或者是气候变化这些危险的时候，可能除了说这些叙述，关于分裂或者是战争的叙述式，还有权力的叙述式是有危险的，更会影响到我们本身对于信任和信念的理解，这样的一种丧失让我们很容易互相对抗，包括造成乌克兰战争和巴勒斯坦问题的一些现状。
尽管每个国家的政治运行不一样，但是我们都需要重新对文化进行定义，让它变得更加开放。希腊文明是作为一个民主的源头，但同时也产生了不同的词语。
借这个分享引出一些和大家在这个现场讨论和连接的问题，更像是一个抛砖引玉。
谢谢。
陆思培：现在有一个自由讨论的时间，如果大家有具体的问题或者想了解的可以提问。
陈晓阳：在大卫·格雷伯离世之后做的 Museum of Care项目我也非常感兴趣，同样是人类学工作者，我们会对大卫·格雷伯的工作和凯瑟琳·赫恩的工作报以敬意。因为我接触这个项目比较晚，所以我也是在讲座上才看到两位学者的实践，包括海口的“无墙儿童艺术节”。可不可以再介绍一下这个项目目前遇到的状况和问题？
陆思培：我有一个相关的问题也一并问一下：由于妮卡和格雷伯之前的文章表达了对不断扩展的艺术边界或不同类型的参与式艺术与边缘群体、不同社区合作的质疑，我想问妮卡，你对凯瑟琳的工作有何看法？
Nika :
During the festival, I had the chance to see the Cuban project, and I believe it possesses all the qualities that Scotland himself described. The project blurs the line between art and non-art, and there is a fluidity in distinguishing between care work and artwork in what they are doing. I observed this work within a festival deeply integrated into the community. Everything about it was truly wonderful; it didn't exhibit the negative qualities often associated with art world projects, where art is created and then the community is left behind. This project, in which we were honoured to take part, is genuinely transforming the lives of real people, and it continues to do so.
I would like to express gratitude to the organizers of the project, particularly for their dedication to the youth. For example, what separates this context from the art world? In events like the Venice Biennale, a prize is typically given to the main pavilion and the major artworks. It's almost like an Olympic Games, where everyone is competing in the national pavilions. In such a context, individuals are inclined to overshadow others, turning it into a game. However, none of that was evident here. Instead, everyone was striving to contribute as much as possible to the entire project.
妮卡·杜布罗夫斯基：我们在这次艺术节才认识，凯瑟琳的项目是很有质量的，也会有自己的创造流动性的感受，和社区的连接性也非常强，但可能也是和社区项目的发起者创造的环境很有关系。如果你去威尼斯双年展，每个国家有自己的馆，有不同的边界，但在这里一切是融合的。
陆思培：请问凯瑟琳在与这些青少年一起工作时，你会怎样理解自己和青少年甚至儿童之间可能并不平衡的权力关系？以及会面临儿童或者青少年艺术项目的伦理问题大概有哪些？
Kathleen:
I believe it's crucial to address several points made in the previous conversation. I want to take a moment to discuss the power dynamics at play when collaborating. It's important for me to approach projects by putting myself in a position of humility and allowing the individuals I work with to take the lead. This means that I see myself as more of a facilitator, creating opportunities and resources for the people I work with, rather than imposing my own direction.
For instance, when working with kids in Senegal, I focused on helping them achieve their goals. They expressed a desire for a website to promote themselves, so I assisted them in creating videos and developing the website. I also facilitated their access to a museum, where they organized performances. By empowering them to lead the projects, I also put myself in a vulnerable position, as I don't always have full control. However, maintaining relationships and seeing the positive impact on the community and individuals involved is what drives me. I don't do this work for financial gain; it's the satisfaction of making a difference that motivates me.
凯瑟琳·赫恩：首先，我并不是主导或决定一个项目的走向，往往是与合作对象共同探讨，倾听他们的声音。在多年的过程中，我与他们建立了信任和不同程度的联系。除了刚刚介绍的主要项目外，我们还会制作网站和视频，并在项目结束后保持联系。在这个过程中，我受到了很多影响，自己的生活和感知也随之发生了变化。这些项目之间往往存在暗含的联系，除了参与者主要是青少年之外，我自己也在这个过程中获得了力量和滋养。由于项目时间较长，接触的领域较多，通常并不会带来太多经济收益，甚至需要自己投入大量资源来完成这些事情。
左下角的女孩是在控制拍照的瞬间。在她平时的合作中，比如拍摄角度的选择和打印哪张照片，都是由对方来决定的。我不会过多干涉最终成品的意见。同时，这个社区也能够保留我们共同创作的作品。
提问（Amos）：我和朋友也做了一些实践，组织了20来个人去助残医院和20多个精神患者做互动。可能和我们不一样的是，无墙艺术节的宣传和参与者都是来自世界各地的朋友。那么儿童本地的参与者占比多少呢？因为我感觉过去的艺术家或者参观的人都有四五十人，看照片的儿童可能有二三十个人，像这种情况本地参与者会感到疲惫、混乱的感觉吗？会不会在一个活动中存在本地的参与者少于外部参与者之类的情况？
周琰（本届“无墙儿童艺术节”策展人之一）：我们目前没有确切的统计数字，但从现场情况来看，本地孩子的核心群体是围绕无墙幼儿园的社区，这个社区并不是孤立的，还包括周边纵横交错的街道。今年的艺术节首次将一些项目扩展到了邻近的社区，效果相当不错，那里的孩子们也会自发地参与进来，但核心参与者仍然是无墙幼儿园的孩子们。
具体人数难以估计，日常活动的孩子们大约有十到二十个，但在艺术节期间，我每天能看到大约三四十个孩子，他们总是围绕在我们周围。孩子们身边是家长，附近店铺的邻居也在场，形成了一种水乳交融的氛围。
在无墙幼儿园周围，有许多本地海南的朋友和志愿者，艺术节期间只是其中一部分，我估计大约有十几个人，他们长期在那里。还有一些海南本地人，他们或许是注意到了，或许是已经给予了支持，或是临时关注的，也会来到艺术节。如果包括本地的街坊、邻居、家长，以及稍微远一点地方来的人，我认为人数上百是完全可能的，现场人头攒动，大人、小孩、志愿者、艺术家都混在一起，很难区分，可能在衣着上有所区别，但活动是共同参与的。
对于海南本地的影响，实际上在艺术节之前我们是有顾虑的，担心外来的介入会带来负面影响，可能会压制本地较为内敛的声音，担心他们互助的方式会被外来的、强势的当代艺术或知识化元素所淹没。从一开始，我们就有意识地做了一些准备：首先，孩子是第一位的；其次，强调海南本土社群和艺术家的重要性；第三才是邀请参与艺术节的艺术家。起初，我们也会观察本地艺术家是否会紧张，但在一起工作时，所有的顾虑都消失了，大家相处融洽，互相配合得很好，彼此尊重，现场的问题也更容易解决。
因为这些顾虑并不是凭空想象的，如何与本土文化相互支持、相互滋养，我认为这是一个长期的问题，可能需要不同的人用不同的方式慢慢接触和影响。我举一个有趣的例子，艺术节结束前两天的晚上，大家聚在一起讨论，因为很多人即将离开。当时大家各抒己见，有本地的，也有邀请来的艺术家。那几天我特别累，听着听着就有些困了，我下意识地从旁边的书架上拿了一本书，翻开后发现是一首很美的诗，于是我就到前面给大家朗读了，大家都说这首诗很好。后来才知道那本诗集的作者就是我们每天默默帮助我们的一个朋友陈有膑，他不会主动介绍自己，但总是以各种方式在帮助我们，不仅仅是在艺术节期间，实际上他长期都在帮助我们，这是海南人的特质，相对内敛。我们希望慢慢找到机会，鼓励他们更多地参与，共同创作或做些事情，我们也想创造这样的机会。
任钧（本届“无墙儿童艺术节”艺术家之一）：艺术节中充满了许多化学反应，这些反应是独特而不可预测的。比如，艺术节的发起者唐老师如何与社区建立联系，以及这个环境中的儿童如何参与其中，都给我留下了深刻的印象。我认为这一切都是反生产的，也就是说，它违背了传统的生产逻辑和模式。
在我看来，艺术节的发起者唐浩多代表了“天才”这个词的反面。他非常谦逊，性格温和，话不多，没有强烈的存在感，但他在背后策划了许多艺术节的细节。你不会经常看到他，但他的工作却是艺术节成功的关键。尽管在短暂的时间内，各种各样的活动看似混乱，但实际上却有一种秩序和平静存在，这正是因为有像台风眼一样的组织者在其中发挥着作用。这是一种非常特别的领导力。
当受邀的外来艺术家进入社区时，由于他的工作，这里已经建立了很多信任。这种信任与发起者的个性密切相关。如果没有他前期的努力，小朋友们可能不会对外来参与者持如此开放的态度。很多人可能没有注意到他的许多工作，但实际上，这些工作是整个艺术节成功的基石。在这里，我的感受非常好。
陆思培：好的，感谢大家今天的到来，今天的活动就到这里，谢谢大家。
现场部分观众合影
